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Beta

Vengeance Demon Hunter State on Shadowlands Beta - Ineffectual Changes, Rotation Issues, Covenants

Pubblicato 25/07/2020 alle 04:18 da Itamae

IntroductionAbout the AuthorFel Hammer Demon Hunter Class DiscordChanges and Issues

Pain has been renamed Fury in Shadowlands to match Havoc.

Vildevastazione, a talent that was taken in early Legion before the Spirit Bomb rework, and appears to be our spec’s signature spell, is now baseline.

Ingordigia has been replaced with Demone.

Fendente d'Anima received a minor buff increasing its damage and healing compared to BfA, but is now limited to 5 targets.

Marchiatura Ardente gained a new rank Marchiatura Ardente that causes it to leave a DoT on the target for a small amount of damage.

Aculei Demoniaci has been buffed, giving 75% of our agility as armor instead of 60%.

Mastery has been increased from 20% base to 24%.

Good

Baseline Vildevastazione gives us another Fury spender as well as interactions with some new talents.

Talents have been reworked so that we no longer have to choose between Damage and Survivability, and our Survivability is less reliant on random procs.

Demone allows us to consistently control when we want Metamorfosi Demoniaca up and no longer competes with Bomba Spirituale on the same row.

We gained a little bit more survivability during Active Mitigation uptime relative to BfA due to the changes to Aculei Demoniaci and Mastery.

Bad

Unless we take the Bomba Spirituale talent, we will be entirely reliant on the low damage from Rogo Rovente and Sigillo della Fiamma in order to hold aggro in AoE situations due to the 5 target cap on Fendente d'Anima.

Sigils are our only form of group utility and one of our core sigils, Sigillo delle Catene is a talent rather than being baseline. This could be replaced by a talent that has an effect on all our Sigils like the other two talents such as increasing the radius of effect, making the row dependent on content. Some other active form of utility like a stun or group defensive would help round out the spec.

Mastery is effectively just Agility in another form and has no interesting interaction with our kit. It makes Aculei Demoniaci stronger when active, which is generally unnecessary. A rework to make it affect gameplay in some fashion would make it stronger and more rewarding. For example, bring back Fendente del Dolore in some form, or Nutrimento Demone as part of Mastery allowing a feedback loop that incentivizes proper gameplay.

Soul pickup from movement and in situations where we are up against terrain causing Souls to spawn inside us is still an issue. It causes us to lose DPS when playing Bomba Spirituale, and lose survivability when playing any other build since we are unable to control consumption.

Many of our talents, both old and new are still never going to be taken due to one talent in each row being excessively powerful.

We have 3 talents here which provide some increase to mobility, along with some damage. Assalto Abissale was merged with Impatto delle Fiamme, but we lost some quality of life in having the bonus 10 yard range removed. It will still be the strongest pick outside of some niche builds where Fiamme Agonizzanti may be taken. Vilspada is still a dead talent due to requiring an enemy target to charge to, and costing extra GCDs while generating Fury but no Souls, which are our core resource.

This row contains talents that provide survivability in general. However, Ricaduta is still the only talent that provides a significant increase, as well as some damage through the souls generated. Fendente d'Anima’s base heal is so low that Banchetto di Anime is insignificant, and the HoT is overwritten on every cast. Bruciato Vivo only works in AoE situations, but spreads too slowly to matter, and if the targets with Marchiatura Ardente on them die, it stops spreading.

We again have talents that provide survivability with some damage. Bomba Spirituale will be the default pick due to a significant damage and healing increase, with Carne Carbonizzata having some uses when combined with Fiamme Agonizzanti for a pure ST defensive situation. Armatura Infernale is unlikely to see play because of our base armor being too low for it to matter, while in situations where we have Aculei Demoniaci or Metamorfosi Demoniaca up, our armor is high enough that a 20% increase is insignificant.

This row has no clear theme. Frattura will likely be default due to providing burst souls for Bomba Spirituale, with Nutrimento Demone being taken for situations where Aculei Demoniaci uptime is critical or when we need to heal a constant flow of damage, thus requiring Recisione for Soul generation. Lacerazione d'Anima is close to useless and will never be taken due to how little offensive power we have translating into small amounts of leech.

This row contains utility regarding our Sigils. Sigillo delle Catene will be the default for any mob control situations, while Sigilli Concentrati is for a very minor DPS increase when combined with Assalto Abissale. Sigilli Ravvivati currently has no function.

This row contains defensive options. Demone will be the default due to how powerful Metamorfosi Demoniaca is. What typically kills tanks is spike damage, rather than sustained, so a powerful cooldown is generally stronger than some consistent damage smoothing as provided by Razziatore del Vuoto. Barriera d'Anima provides a function similar to, but weaker than Demone, and requires spending Souls which we would rather use on Bomba Spirituale, due to the the extreme defensive gain from Metamorfosi Demoniaca.

This row also provides defensive options. Ultima Spiaggia will still be the primary pick, due to the power of a Cheat Death in progression content. Baluardo Rovinoso overlaps functionality with Demonic, stacking the cooldowns, thus making it less appealing, while Estrazione Forzata has too long of a cooldown considering it provides a heal equivalent to one Bomba Spirituale. However, it may have a niche as a damage talent in AoE situations where Ultima Spiaggia isn’t needed.

UglyRecisioneNutrimento DemoneNutrimento DemoneRogo RoventeRicadutaShad'har l'InsaziabileDevastazione del CrepuscoloSferzata del VuotoForza del CustodeVersatileIngordigiaFendente d'AnimaBomba SpiritualeFendente d'AnimaRecisioneFratturaRecisioneBomba SpiritualeBomba SpiritualeFratturaBomba SpiritualeFendente d'AnimaFendente d'AnimaFendente d'AnimaBomba SpiritualeBomba SpiritualeFragilitàFendente d'AnimaBomba SpiritualeFendente d'AnimaBanchetto di AnimeBomba SpiritualeFragilitàFendente d'AnimaBomba SpiritualeBomba SpiritualeSigillo della FiammaRogo RoventeRicadutaFendente d'AnimaBomba SpiritualeRecisioneFendente d'AnimaSigillo della FiammaRogo RoventeFratturaRecisioneRecisioneFratturaSigillo della FiammaRogo RoventeAculei DemoniaciNutrimento DemoneMetamorfosi DemoniacaMarchiatura ArdenteAculei DemoniaciNutrimento DemoneAculei DemoniaciMetamorfosi DemoniacaScudo SaldoScudo del VirtuosoAculei DemoniaciVisione della PerfezioneMetamorfosi DemoniacaIngordigiaMetamorfosi DemoniacaDemoneVildevastazioneMetamorfosi DemoniacaAculei DemoniaciMetamorfosi DemoniacaMarchiatura ArdenteBruciato VivoAculei DemoniaciNutrimento DemoneMetamorfosi DemoniacaCovenantsKyrianClass AbilityDecreto ElisioIngordigiaSigilli RavvivatiSigillo delle CateneGenericEvocazione: FactotumDinamo della NullificazioneVenthyrClass AbilityMarchio PeccaminosoMarchiatura ArdenteMetamorfosi DemoniacaMetamorfosi DemoniacaGenericPorta delle OmbreNecrolordClass AbilityCarne alla FiammaGenericForgiatura della CarneCarne alla FiammaNight FaeClass AbilityA CacciaGenericAnimorfosiPorta delle OmbreDecreto ElisioFiamme AgonizzantiCarne CarbonizzataProfanazione di RazelikhDecreto ElisioDecreto ElisioMarchio PeccaminosoMetamorfosi DemoniacaLegendariesGeneral Legendaries

Potenziamento del Mezzo-Gigante - Absolutely useless. In no situation would we ever need a movement speed or melee range boost, and increased size can actually be detrimental, making it harder to judge mechanics and positioning.

Ora Più Oscura - Giving us a defensive group cooldown with no way to control when it is dropped is bad. There are many situations where we could potentially drop to 35% due to an external factor but not be in any danger, so this will never be used outside of some possibility of a niche situation where we can drop health for a raid cooldown before a mechanic.

Dono Lumenero - Quite likely to be the only useful legendary, this will provide us with approximately 4.5% increased uptime on Metamorfosi Demoniaca when taking the Demone talent, which is likely to be our default talent choice in Shadowlands. While it is random, it provides us with a similar effect to Ingordigia and can proc off of itself, allowing us to extend Metamorfosi Demoniaca duration. Unfortunately, it will still not be strong enough to make up for the large Mitigation gaps we're likely to see.

Angoscia Collettiva - Seems interesting, but not likely to be very strong. For Vengeance, it will summon an allied Havoc Demon Hunter that casts Raggio Oculare. It has potential to deal quite a bit of damage depending on tuning, but provides no defensive benefits. In addition, it always spawns to your right and is locked in place, similar to Binario del Cannone di Kul Tiras, so it can completely miss, especially if you need to move or turn to follow a target.

Havoc Legendary

Vilbombardamento - If this works for Vengeance despite being categorized as a Havoc Legendary, it has some potential for extra threat in AoE, especially if the additional glaive portion stacks. Unfortunately, it looks like as of the current build, legendaries are spec-locked.

Vengeance Legendaries

Anima Ardente - A reworked form of Kirel Narak from Legion, rather than reducing the cooldown on enemies hit by Rogo Rovente, it reduces the cooldown of Marchiatura Ardente for every Soul consumed by Fendente d'Anima. This would only ever be taken if playing the Fiamme Agonizzanti/Carne Carbonizzata combination in a pure Single Target encounter for maximum uptime on Marchiatura Ardente. The vast majority of the time, we will be playing Bomba Spirituale and preferring to consume all Souls with that, so this legendary would have no effect whatsoever.

Profanazione di Razelikh - The effect from Avambracci Perduti del Profanatore in Legion, which was basically never used. We only press Fendente d'Anima once every 6 GCDs, so it's approximately 50% cooldown reduction on a Sigil in the best case, and reducing the cooldown of a random Sigil isn't particularly helpful. The only way to control the cooldown reduction is to not use any other Sigil than the one we want a reduction on. Depending on tuning, there's a possibility of using it with the Kyrian covenant and never using any Sigil outside of Decreto Elisio for maximum damage, but it would likely still be worse than just playing Bomba Spirituale.

Fortificazione di Vilfiamma - The effect from Mantello delle Vilfiamme in Legion. Passive magic reduction is nice, but unlikely to see use in most encounters. If anything, it might be taken in some raid encounters where there is a lot of consistent rot damage, but it's unlikely to be more useful than Dono Lumenero.

Spirito delle Fiamme Oscure - The effect from Spirito delle Fiamme Oscure in Legion. This was hardly ever chosen in Legion, and seems like it won't be in Shadowlands either. Without taking Assalto Abissale, it won't stack quickly enough to do the full damage or healing on each brand, and the only use would be in AoE to burst down a priority target. If encounters or dungeons are designed around this, it might be useful but in the past they haven't been.

Overall Evaluation of LegendariesAculei DemoniaciMetamorfosi DemoniacaFendente d'AnimaMarchiatura ArdenteClosingVildevastazioneFendente d'Anima

Commenti

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Commento di DubwiseSpot on!Commento di VantrinaI've been really depressed about vengeance DH for so long, because it's... so close to being amazing, it just needs a few minor tweaks. It's always still "fun" but the fact that it has so many issues makes it volatile to play.

The same goes for havoc dh, I don't mind it being easy, but the class really needs more spells, (NOT UTILITY, AS IT ALREADY IS OVERBLOATED WITH UTILITY) to really tie it together and make it all come together as one. Also eyebeam spec is meh, tomb havoc DH was when it was the most fun imo though I know most disagree. I just don't think demonic should be for both ST AND aoe.Commento di KeyenHowever, it is still doing significantly less damage and healing than Spirit Bomb for the same amount of Fury, so despite the developers’ stated goal of having us use Spirit Bomb as a maintenance buff for Frailty and Soul Cleave otherwise, we will still never prioritize it over Spirit Bomb.Commento di jardragon901I'm beginning to wonder if some devs even play some of these specs at a decent level so don't realize how bad these legendaries are....sigh guess ill stick to tanking on my warrior for another x-packCommento di JimbrooksThis is a really good writeup. I hope Blizzard take some of this feedback onboard. Especially about Mastery being not a thing to consider for most contents.Commento di GeigeFantastic summary of the spec. Great article.Commento di froggyman6000Pretty much spot on. I believe it would be quite simple for Blizzard to fix this, but considering that Demon Hunter was released in a state almost as bad as it is now, I do not think we should wait for any changes soon. And all the core issues aside I really hate when soul fragments spawn inside you, you lose too much DPS. Hope at least the soul fragment issue can be fixed.Commento di BlakeThe class feel incomplete without borrowed powers. Yeah, well if you gut any class of half it's abilities, they won't feel complete either, that's not an argument, borrowed power are part of the design and can't be taken out of the picture when it comes to how the class feel, that's absolutly irrelevant as an argument, so stop bring it in.

They designed borrowed power as a mean to feel progression through the expansion with more or less success, loved it in Legion, less fan of it in BFA, hope that it will feel good in SL with conduit and everything. I really don't think we gonna see borrowed powers goes away anytime soon.

Previously, Blizzard's game philosophy was build around giving the player, no matter the class he played, the ability to overcome any obstacle. Bring the player, not the class philosophy. It made every class/spec very versatil and in the end, we started complaining that every class could do everything and feeled the same.
Blizzard heard that and changed it's approach on the matter, going back to less versatility, now, a spec can't do everything well and of course, we are complaining about it aswell.

It will never end. I wish we would go back to more versatility because I like to feel I can be the best at everything if I'm good enough with my class/spec but I accept it ain't the game philosophy Blizzard is following nowadays and I also know that no matter what philosophy they are going for, people will cry an ocean about it.Commento di vegeta0585While some valid issues, it sounds a lot like the writer forgot what it was like to play a DH at low item levels with no corruptions / essences / azerite traits. SL doesn't feel that bad tbh, especially compared to the start of other expansions. Slow as heck compared to now, but it's like that every time we start anew.Commento di ZaraszIt bugs me that felblade isnt baseline again, hasnt been baseline in Bfa. Its something that other classes have without wasting a talent point. It serves as a nice resource generator and deals more damage than the other resource generator and helps to get faster to some enemies, jump to enemies on a higher ground level and so on.

Many abilities are getting damage boosts. Why? We are tanks. Boost threat generation & specialize the class in something instead.
Parry chance is low, we cant counter magic damage (without azerite trait), fiery brand has too much cooldown, we lose alot of armor without azerite gear...

All the devs do is balancing... something. They just look at numbers instead of making this fun.Commento di NahelaI get the feeling we're at a numbers-only point in changes for Shadowlands, which is unfortunate. I played Vengeance all through Legion and had a good time with it despite the shortcomings, but in BfA it just wasn't fun to play anymore which made those issues the forefront. Hoping they're able to make some changes, as I'd love to return to itCommento di DayonHow many pulls are there in Mythics that rely on routinely pulling groups greater than five? I run anywhere between +10-15 and pulling that many would be suicide with some affixes.

Too early to tell if DHs suffer by not picking Spirit Bomb tbh.Commento di SquishyyKeep making it sound like spirit bomb is a bad thing, it should be baseline. Vengeance is absolutely horrible without that ability.Commento di KeyenHow many pulls are there in Mythics that rely on routinely pulling groups greater than five? I run anywhere between +10-15 and pulling that many would be suicide with some affixes.

Too early to tell if DHs suffer by not picking Spirit Bomb tbh.Commento di MrJonesssWe need a 3rd dps spec! Like Valla from Diablo, a ranged demon hunter assassin spec!Commento di JoullezFirstly i dont have beta so i hvae not tried any of it. I played vengeance in legion and now in bfa.
I dont think ppl understand how good this vengeance dh is going to be. Altho this is much less than we had in legion
We have two charges of demon spikes for a totall of 12 second+ 6 seconds cuz of recharge. after that 18 seconds of high dmg taken u can fel devastation for a demonic window for 8 sec met. Never found a situation where use spikes with meta its overkill and waste. This should give you the 4th demon spikes and when that is over u can use meta cd for 15 seconds letting your demon spikes refresh 2 charges. Do this and weave in 4 or 5 soul frags on spirit bomb and u good to go. I agree mostly on this guide i love them. Remember that infernal strike is not on the GCD that mean u can infernal strike + spirit bomb for nice aoe threat. Spirit cleave feels like u are just dumping pain to not overcap. Why is spirit bomb not baseline, it does what soulcleave does but 300% more effective a soulcleave with 2 frags wont save you but a max frag spirit bomb most likely will considering how spiky vengdh can be. Its waste if u use less than 4 frags dps and hps wise.
Like the spec has revolved around spirit bomb for 2 expansions now and they are still buffing soulcleave ... painbringer is a dearly missed trait from legion it was the only thing that saved you from kiljaeden felclaw combo hc if u didnt have painbringer stacked up u were pretty much forced to use a cd. You want to deliver good gameplay that makes sense how can the playerbase be working with less than what we had earlier and if this is all the class legendaries we can craft i am deeply conflicted about the future of the game why not give us the legion weapon traits and then we can make legendaries of them and we make our own choices.. focus on the gameplay make the rotations interesting and engaging. Idk if we can call this rant or w.e
But i am cheering for this game i honestly want it to be the best.Commento di DougHoffmannI really don't understand why the devs don't make Souls a resource, like Holy Power or Soul Shards, to be used on demand instead of the awful pick up/consume gameplay. If you are in a bad spot and pick them up by accident you gimp the rotation and become vulnerable. It happens quite often and it's not something the other tank specs have to deal with, since they all have control over their resources. It's one of many things that play against the spec and makes it feel clunky and subpar when paired with the others.Commento di CornerStoreDIf it's a class reliant on borrowed power, and a new expansion always means the disappearance of all that power, then no wonder it feels bad.

I get the point of these class looks but they seem a bit premature with absolutely no numbers tuning yet.Commento di segrandSo funny when you don't even have choice and most of the time poeple go to Venthyr. Even Legendarys are bad and we can't even pick something usefull. Conduits will help us a little, when at max rank we can have -40 sec on Fiery Brand.Commento di DhalHow many pulls are there in Mythics that rely on routinely pulling groups greater than five? I run anywhere between +10-15 and pulling that many would be suicide with some affixes.

Too early to tell if DHs suffer by not picking Spirit Bomb tbh.

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